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Taxation of Retirement Income for US citizen living in - Dan Walkow - Seabank Capital -

XXXXXX wrote:
Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
XXXXXX on Thursday, June 4, 2009 at 13:19:29

My_question_is: Both

question: I have a client that has dual citizenship in the US and Canada.  
I am helping him with a retirement plan and relized that I don't understand 
the tax treatment for his retirement income.  
How will his US pensions distributions, social secuirty, and royalties be taxed?  
If he now permanently resides in Canada, will he pay Canadian taxes and US taxes?
Can you tell me a good resource for a Canadaian tax guide? Thanks, XXXXXX

david ingram replies:

If your client is in Canada and you are in Canada, your client and you should read the Oct 1993 Newsletter on Dual citizenship at - the newsletter can be found in the top left hand box.

Next you should both read the Oct 95 Newsletter which explain what a US citizen living in Canada has to do.

Note that the $25,000 maximum fine for not filing form 5471 (if he owns 10% or more of a Foreign (i.e. Canadian or French or Indonesian, etc) Corporation has now increased to $60,000 per year per shareholder

Note also that the minimum fine for not filing the TDF-90 forms is $10,000 now and the 2008 forms were / are due by June 30, 2009.

I trust that you US citizen has been filing his US tax returns.

85% of his US FICA (Social Security) is taxable in Canada.  It is NOT taxable in the US.  His CPP and OAS is only taxable in Canada if he is living in Canada.

If he is receiving IRA or 401(K) pensions from the USA, the US gets to keep up to 15%.  100% of these pensions are taxable in Canada and he will claim credit for any tax paid to the US by filing Canadian  forms 2209 and 2036.

Royalties are also taxed at 15% by the US and credit is claimed in Canada.

What this means is that if he has to pay 28% on these amounts to the US, he claims a foreign tax credit on US Form 1116 by showing it as resourced by Treaty.

Let's pretend the US Royalties and Pension are $100,000 and the US tax is $28,000 and the dollar is at par.

He would pay the US $15,000 because even though the calculated tax was $28,000, his net tax after filing form 1116 would be $15,000.

He would report the $100,000 on his Canadian return and claim credit for the $15,000 paid to the US on form 1116.

You will get more information and ideas by reading the US / Canada Tax dissertation in the second box down on the right hand side at

CCH has a couple of  good books on Cross border taxation.
Dan Walkow (866) 541-9952 of SEABANK CAPITAL is one of the very few people who can handle IRA, 401(K), TTSP and RRIF accounts at the same time. You might want to consult with him as well if you need help with the cross border handling of these accounts.  Remember that you can NOT and should NOT consult with your client about US accounts unless you have US SEC registration.

You and your client might want to invest in a phone consultation with me or someone like me.  See details way down below.

These older questions will help as well.


Hi there

I am confused.  The Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty offers an exemption for income earned 
in a plan such an RPP/RRSP/RRIF while the income is in the Plan 
(for U.S. federal tax purposes).

Form 8891 refers to RRSPs and RRIFs.  Does 8891 not apply to RPPs?  Or do you use 
Form 8833 and put the items listed in the Rev Proc?
david ingram replies:

This is a good question for our Internet phone in Q & A on Wednesday nights.  At 7 PM Vancouver / LA time, you can phone 1-866-980-0499 and ask any US / Canada  Tax or cross border investment question when I will be interviewing Seabank Capital's Dan Walkow on cross border Investing - see some of the archives with Dan and the live show at

(This Wednesday, we will also be interviewing David Hancock, the man who brought the hatching eagles and spawning salmon to the world at

The three Revenue Procedures have been completely over ridden by form 8891.
Company pension plans do NOT have to be reported on form 8891.

For each RRSP you should file an 8891 with your tax return.  If there is a positive return within the RRSP, that profit is to be reported on the 8891 AND schedule B and then subtracted on schedule B.  In addition, if the total amount in all of your foreign accounts exceeds $10,000, you must also file a form TDF 90-22.1 for each account.

If over $10,000, you would answer yes to question 7 AND yes to question 8 at the bottom of Schedule B of the 1040.

Your failure to say yes if over $10,000 creates a minimum fine of $10,000 with the maximum being up to  $500,000 PLUS up to 5 years in jail and yes, i have personally met a 105 year old lady fined $10,000 and a 60 year old man fined $100,000 and given 8 months in Jail.  Another 68 year old lady one of my colleagues dealt with received a $60,000 fine and 6 months in jail for failure to report here.

The sneaky part is that failing to file schedule B and say NO if you have less than $10,000 can also be a minimum $10,000 fine.  If you look closely, you will find that you MUST fill in questions 7 and 8 on schedule B if you have any foreign accounts of any kind.

The TDF 90-22.1 form does NOT go with the tax return.  It goes to the Department of Justice in Detroit and the DOJ DOES process the form for date signed,  number of account and the name and address of the financial institution involved.

If you have a RRIF or an RRSP, you will say YES to Question 8 at the bottom of Schedule B.  You are lucky to be Canadian and able to file form 8891 instead of form 3520 which is a real pain in the neck and any where else you care to think of.  The concept of  filing Form 8833 and dealing with the Revenue  Procedure process of 1989, 2002 or 2003 was canceled with form 8891.

Failure to file form 8891 has a penalty of 35% of the amount in the RRSP PLUS 5% for every year you failed to file it.
WARNING for California residents.  The state of California does NOT recognize the exemption on form 8891 and you MUST report the internal earnings of the RRSP on your California 540(CA) or 540NR(CANR)  as a California adjustment and pay California Tax.  What this means is that in the future, when you cash it in, you will  have a different ACB for California than for the Feds.  AND, AND, AND - if you have left California, it is State tax paid money and you can easily spend four or five hours  trying to figure that one out with interstate tax credits.

This older question will help as well.

[email protected]: Please see bottom of message if you wish to unsubscribe.

I have lived in the US for 17 years, originally with a green card, and became a US citizen last year.  I have not filed a Canadian tax return since approx 1992.  I had an RRSP in Canada which I switched to an investment company in Alberta – partially into mutual funds and partially into an RSP.  I received a T3 – do I need to file a Canadian Tax return? If yes, what would be my first step after being away so many years?

Thank you,

david ingram replies:

You do not need to file a tax return but you do need to pay the CRA 10% on any interest you received under Art XI of the Tax Treaty and 15% on any actual dividends you received under Article X.

I can bet that you have lived in the US for 17 years and never reported your Internal earnings on the RRSP to the US on your schedule B.  If you look at the instructions for schedule B now, you will see that you have to fill it in if you have any foreign accounts.  An RRSP is both a foreign account (question 7) and more importantly a foreign trust (question 8).  Assuming you had / have more than $10,000 total in your foreign account(s),failure to fill in schedule B and answer "yes" and fill in the required T DF 90-22.1  (any account, not just an RRSP)  carries a minimum penalty of $10,000 and a maximum of  $500,000  PLUS up to 5 years  in jail.

If your foreign account (or one of them) happens to be a Canadian RRSP, failure to file from 3520 or the new substitute 8891 carries a fine or penalty of 35% of the amount in the RRSP PLUS 5% per year that it was not reported.

The good news is that although I know of over 1,000  $10,000 fines for failure to file the TDF-90 forms, I have never seen anyone fined who came forward voluntarily and filed six years of back forms.  Same thing for the 8891.

What I think you have done now is taken out $5,000 or $10,000 out of your RRSP using a Canadian address so that they only withheld 10% tax because some financial advisor or friend has told you to do that.  They have then set you up with a Canadian Mutual fund which unless they are one of about ten qualified people in Canada, they are not legally allowed to deal with you because you are a US resident.

You should not have received a T3 slip.  It means that you are not being shown as a non-resident of Canada and are using a Canadian address for your account.  As a non-resident of Canada you owe 15% tax on any dividends received and 10% tax on any interest received.  You may want to keep the Canadian address because you have been told that your broker or Canadian financial representative can not deal with you if you are a non-resident and that is correct.  If you are involved in a wink, wink, nudge, nudge kind of deal, your financial person is risking their own securities licence and that of their company.  In addition, the US Securities Commission can fine them for selling to someone in the US without a US Securities licence. 

In the meantime, you owe Canada another 15% tax on the withdrawal (deregistration) from the RRSP and have to do a rather complicated calculation to decide how much of the withdrawal is taxable on your US return. 

Get it fixed, you (and your husband Axxxxx?) are subject to massive US fines if my assumption is correct and I am 99% sure i am correct based upon your question.

We can do it for you if required.

PS and tongue in cheek for sure but if your financial person in Alberta knows you are living in the US and is still dealing with you in this situation, he  or she should be reported to their company and fired or re-qualified or something serious.  If he or she knew that you are living in the US and did not tell you that  you had these specific US reporting  rules, they should just be shot and put out of their misery because they have left you exposed to big fines and penalties.  I think, that by now, every financial organization has made sure that their personnel understand these rules.

The record I saw was a 105 year old lady in the Lynn Valley nursing Home with a $10,000 fine for not reporting a Royal Bank of Canada account on form TDF 90-22.1.

This older question will help you a bit as well


We have watched the Cdn$ rise against the US$ and now wonder what the impact is if we cash in the RRSP's and bring the cash back to the USA.  It seems that the exchange rate would offset the tax impacts 9presuming of course that the exchange rate is temporarily high).

Logically there is Cdn penalty withholding and then the cash would be taxed at non resident rates.  Can we cash in smaller amounts to get reduced rates? 

In the US what would happen?

david ingram replies:

I am one of the people that thinks the Canadian Dollar will be worth $1.20 US.  However, I have been wrong before and will be wrong again.  However, you might want to hedge your bets and just transfer 50% and be happy you did not do it three years ago.

A non-resident of Canada owes the Canadian government 25% withholding tax when he or she withdraws an RRSP as a non-resident.

The principal part of the RRSP is not taxable in the US.

The total withdrawal (including the tax deducted) goes on line 15a and the taxable portion goes on line 15b on put zero on 15b and put the actual growth on schedules B and D if you know what the interest, dividends and capital gains portions of the increase are.  The increase in exchange will go on Schedule D for instance.

The taxable portion is the increase in value since the day you crossed the border to the US and will be the part you have been reporting and exempting every year on form 8891 and the previous reporting you did under 89-45 and 2003-57, etc., etc.

Any tax paid to Canada will be deductible as a foreign tax credit on US form 1116 on a pro-rata basis.
You have also, of course been reporting the existence of the RRSP on form TDF 90-22.1  -  the hint about these two forms are the two questions at the bottom of schedule B. The 8891 is a new simpler form for the last three years and takes the place of the draconian 3520  mentioned in the bottom question.

This older Q & A will help you I hope.

I am a Canadian citizen and legal US resident. I've lived in Florida for 25 years and now, at 65, I'm considering taking distributions from a spousal RRSP with Royal Bank.
Unfortunately, income tax information I've received from different sources is terribly conflicting and, at worst, indicates that my nest egg will be gobbled up by governments. Is this something you can steer me straight on?

david ingram replies:

If you roll the RRSP into an RRIF (Registered retirement investment Fund), The payer will have to deduct 15% non resident withholding tax under the terms of Article XVIII of the US . Canada Income Tax Convention (Treaty).

You will then report it again on form 8891 of your 1040 and there may or may not be US tax to pay.  If your income is high enough that you are in a federal 28% tax rate, there 'will' be tax to pay on the RRIF. 

You will claim the 15% tax paid to Canada on US form 1116.
Now, you have been supposed to report the existence of that account to the Department of the Treasury in Detroit on form TDF 90-22.1 since 1989 when that law was passed and shown in bulletin 89-45.  Failure to report can be a penalty of a minimum of $10,000 to a maximum of $500,000 PLUS up to 5 years in jail for each year you did not report it.  See the bottom question on schedule B of your 1040 where your foreign trust requires the preparing and filing of a 3520.

Thankfully, you do NOT have to do a 3520.  the 8891 takes it place and is much easier.

The penalty for not also reporting the RRSP and its internal earnings to the IRS (it was the Dept of Treasury above)  is 35% of the principal plus 5% for each year it was not reported since 1989 when the reporting rules started.  The form 8891 is an exemption for paying the tax on those internal earnings.

See form 8891 at:


Although I know of over 1,000 people who have paid $10,000 fines for not filing form TDF 90-22.1, I (at this time) do not know personally of a single individual who has been fined under the 8891 / 3520 rules.  I also have NEVER seen a person fined for filing the TDF 90-22.1 forms late and voluntarily.

In my opinion, you should file the TDF 90-22.1 forms retroactively for six the Department of the Treasury.

See Form TDF 90-22.1 at Note the penalty of up to $500,000 plus five years in jail for failure to file.  The minimum fine is now $10,000.
You should file retroactive 8891 forms with a 1040X to the IRS for the same years.  Note that you are the BENEFICIARY so follow the Beneficiary rules.  The 8891 form is actually only 3 years old.  Before that, you just wrote out the information on a free form page but it is a convenient form to use retroactively.

Hope this helps and we would be glad to assist if needed.

Regarding the quality of your advisor -- the following explains the licensing problem.

I am a US Citizen and Landed Immigrant of Canada. Do I have any legal or other restrictions  for buying, selling, trading stocks, bonds, mutual funds, or having a broker on both sides of the border doing the same for me. I am getting mixed information from brokers on both sides and NEED an experts advice.
david ingram replies:

The restriction is NOT on you by government.

The restriction is on the people you are dealing with.  They are restricted by the Securities Commissions and their licensing as to whom 'they' can sell to.

In other words, if you live in BC, an Ontario Securities broker or Mutual Fund salesman can NOT deal with you.

Some like Fred Snyder are licenced in BC and Ontario and can deal with you but even two provinces is rare.

When you are talking about BC -  Arizona, or Ontario - Florida, you have a real problem.

The following older answers will likely help - Dan Walkow and Darrell Thompson HAVE gone to the effort to be able to deal with cross-border situations.

QUESTION: 1. have been trying to find ethical investment firm to go with in Canada and can not seem to get any unbiased answers We live in Red Lake Ontario (landed immigrants), but are also US citizens

2. Is this Stansberry & Associates legit, as they seem to have many different opportunities claiming great returns
Pinchot Retirement Plan,  Master Limited Partnership, Market Index Target Term Security , Oakmark Select Funds
Thanks greatly looking forward to your email

david ingram replies:
I have no good or bad knowledge about Stansbery and Associates. None of my clients deal with them to my knowledge.

>From looking at their website, they seem to be a newsletter operation as mucyh as anything.  I have about 15 interviews with newsletter writers on gold (John Embry), oil, uranium (Martin Kafusa), silver (Sean Rahkimov) real estate (Ozzie Jurock), futures and commodities (Victor Adai), Resources in General (Elsworth Dickson, Publisher of Resource World)  etc at - mostly in the third column.

Two ethical people who specialize in selling securities, RRSPs, etc., to US citizens in Canada or Canadians in the US  are:

Dan Walkow
Seabank Financial
White Rock
Local     (604) 541-9952
L D        (866) 541-9952


Mr Darrell Thompson
Blackmont Securities
Local    (416) 874-8007
LD        (866) 775-7704
These two individuals and their companies have gone to the effort to get themselves registered just about everywhere so they can deal with a Canadian in Florida or California or Nevada, or Hawaii,  etc.

Note that because of their specialty, they tend to deal with accounts in excess of $200,000

However, both parties would welcome an exploratory call.

On February 11, 2008, David Ingram wrote:

It is very unlikely that blind or unexpected email to me will be answered.  I receive anywhere from 100 to 700  unsolicited emails a day and usually answer anywhere from 2 to 20 if they are not from existing clients.  Existing clients are advised to put their 'name and PAYING CUSTOMER' in the subject line and get answered first.  I also refuse to be a slave to email and do not look at it every day and have never ever looked at it when I am out of town. 
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However, I regularly search for the words"PAYING CUSTOMER" and always answer them first if they did not get spammed out. For the last two weeks, I have just found out that my own email notes to myself have been spammed out and as an example, as I wrote this on Dec 25, 2007 since June 16th, my 'spammed out' box has 47,941 unread messages, my deleted box has 16645 I have actually looked at and deleted and I have actually answered 1234 email questions for clients and strangers without sending a bill.  I have also put aside 847 messages that I am maybe going to try and answer because they look interesting. -e bankruptcy expert  US Canada Canadian American  Mexican Income Tax service and  help
Therefore, if an email is not answered in 24 to 48 hours, it is likely lost in space.  You can try and resend it but if important AND YOU TRULY WANT OR NEED AN ANSWER from 'me', you will have to phone to make an appointment.  Gillian Bryan generally accepts appointment requests for me between 10:30 AM and 4:00 PM Monday to Friday VANCOUVER (Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles) time at (604) 980-0321.  david ingram expert  US Canada Canadian American  Mexican Income Tax  service and help.
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Phone consultations are $450 for 15 minutes to 50 minutes (professional hour). Please note that GST is added if product remains in Canada or is to be returned to Canada or a phone consultation is in Canada. ($472.50 with GST if in Canada) expert  US Canada Canadian American  Mexican Income Tax  service and help.
This is not intended to be definitive but in general I am quoting $900 to $3,000 for a dual country tax return.
$900 would be one T4 slip one W2 slip one or two interest slips and you lived in one country only (but were filing both countries) - no self employment or rentals or capital gains - you did not move into or out of the country in this year.
$1,200 would be the same with one rental
$1,300 would be the same with one business no rental
$1,300 would be the minimum with a move in or out of the country. These are complicated because of the back and forth foreign tax credits. - The IRS says a foreign tax credit takes 1 hour and 53 minutes.
$1,600 would be the minimum with a rental or two in the country you do not live in or a rental and a business and foreign tax credits  no move in or out

$1,700 would be for two people with income from two countries

$3,000 would be all of the above and you moved in and out of the country.
This is just a guideline for US / Canadian returns
We will still prepare Canadian only (lives in Canada, no US connection period) with two or three slips and no capital gains, etc. for $200.00 up.
With a Rental for $400, two or three rentals for $550 to $700 (i.e. $150 per rental) First year Rental - plus $250.
A Business for $400 - Rental and business likely $550 to $700
And an American only (lives in the US with no Canadian income or filing period) with about the same things in the same range with a little bit more if there is a state return.
Moving in or out of the country or part year earnings in the US will ALWAYS be $900 and up.
TDF 90-22.1 forms are $50 for the first and $25.00 each after that when part of a tax return.
8891 forms are generally $50.00 to $100.00 each.
18 RRSPs would be $900.00 - (maybe amalgamate a couple)
Capital gains *sales)  are likely $50.00 for the first and $20.00 each after that.

Catch - up returns for the US where we use the Canadian return as a guide for seven years at a time will be from $150 to $600.00 per year depending upon numbers of bank accounts, RRSP's, existence of rental houses, self employment, etc. Note that these returns tend to be informational rather than taxable.  In fact, if there are children involved, we usually get refunds of $1,000 per child per year for 3 years.  We have done several catch-ups where the client has received as much as $6,000 back for an $1,800 bill and one recently with 6 children is resulting in over $12,000 refund. 

This is a guideline not etched in stone.  If you do your own TDF-90 forms, it is to your advantage. However, if we put them in the first year, the computer carries them forward beautifully.
This from "ask an income trusts tax service and immigration expert" from or or David Ingram deals on a daily basis with expatriate tax returns with multi jurisdictional cross and trans border expatriate problems  for the United States, Canada, Mexico, Great Britain, United Kingdom, Kuwait, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Indonesia, Japan, China, New Zealand, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Russia, Georgia, Brazil, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia, Scotland, Ireland, Hawaii, Florida, Montana, Morocco, Israel, Iraq, Iran, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Bangkok, Greenland, Iceland, Cuba, Bahamas, Bermuda, Barbados, St Vincent, Grenada,, Virgin Islands, US, UK, GB, and any of the 43 states with state tax returns, etc. Rockwall, Dallas, San Antonio Houston, Denmark, Finland, Sweden Norway Bulgaria Croatia Income Tax and Immigration Tips, Income Tax  Immigration Wizard Antarctica Rwanda Guru  Consultant Specialist Section 216(4) 216(1) NR6 NR-6 NR 6 Non-Resident Real Estate tax specialist expert preparer expatriate anti money laundering money seasoning FINTRAC E677 E667 105 106 TDF-90 Reporting $10,000 cross border transactions Grand Cayman Aruba Zimbabwe South Africa Namibia help USA US Income Tax Convention. Advice on bankruptcy  e bankruptcy expert  US Canada Canadian American  Mexican Income Tax service and help .

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