taking money across the US / Caanda border - FINCEN 104 105 FINTRAC E677 E667 -

Hi David, I'm wondering if you could help me out.  I'm an American citizen who became a "permanent resident" of Canada about 4 years ago.  I recently sold property in Montreal and am thinking about returning to the US to live permanently.  What would be the best way for me to transfer the money to the states?  Thanks so much for your help!  Robin Tajiouti
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david ingram replies:

First, get your Canadian citizenship.  You have been here long enough and there are  absolutely NO disadvantages to your having dual citizenship.

The BIG advantage is that you can return to Canada anytime you want in the future with no questions and / or paperwork.

The easiest way to transfer the money is to have a Candian Bank or the Caisse Populaire transfer it electronically to your bank in the US.

This older Q & A might help as well.
--------------------------

David:

Thanks for the minutes you just spent with me on the phone about taking money to Seattle to pay for a car I have already ordered and put a deposit on.

Please send me the links for the forms for both the Canadian side and the US side for bringing the money to the US.

What happens to this information after I provide the forms?  Just record-keeping for both countries to determine how much money is going in each direction?

Thanks,

---------------------------------------------
david ingram replies:

Taking money across the border to buy a car is an interesting experience.  The last time I did it, I handed the form in to the US person at the border and he looked at it and said "it's wrong", go inside.

So in I went and it was wrong. 

I was going down to buy a used cadillac and had $15,000 US with me and had declared it.

Unfortunately, I also had some Canadian money with me and had neglected to include it.  The border guard looked at the $15,000 US and instinctively knew i had some Canasdian cash as well and the inside fellow gave me royal hell for not declaring "everything" 

The US forms eventually go to Detroit and the Canadian forms go to FINTRAC in Ottawa.  However, YOU hand them in at the border.

FINTRAC
24th floor, 234 Laurier Avenue West
Ottawa, ON
K1P 1H7
CANADA

Email
guidelines-lignesdirectrices@fintrac-canafe.gc.ca

Telephone
1-866-346-8722 (toll free)

Facsimile
(613) 943-7931

The two organizations actually do record them and keep them on hand to compare to other information.

This older Q & A will give you the forms needed:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just saw a question you answered about a Canadian living in the US as a permanent resident selling a home and wanting to transfer the money to a US bank. ( http://www.david-ingram.com/CEN-TAPEDE/archive/Week-of-Mon-20061009/002904.html) I'm in the same situation, except I want to keep most of the money in Canada. You said, below, that the banks will notify the treasury on amounts over $10,000. Is this $10,000 at any one time, or per calendar year?
 
What I want to do is bring enough money to pay off my US credit cards. Through several bank withdrawals and cheque deposits I've already put about $9600 Canadian into my US bank (not at the same time) to pay bills. Do I need to wait until next year to bring more in, or is it okay to continue doing this? I would need maybe another $11,000 to pay everything off here.
 
Thanks!
 
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
david ingram replies:

If you have transferred $9.600 so far and have paid it out already, there is no problem.  If you are transferring smaller amounts because you are trying to amass an amount over $10,000 for a single purpose, then you have to report the transfer of more than $10,000 AND the financial institution you have transferred the money to in the USA should be reporting the transaction as well.  In fact making several transfers for a total of $12,000 could make you look like a suspicous person whereas one $15,000 transfer would never raise a suspicious person report, especially if the money was then paid out to credit card companies.

The rules for reporting take place for both countries when there is a transfer (or series of transfers) of more than $10,000.

If you do it as a bank transfer, you do not need to worry.  The bank will do the reporting for you.

If you take cash out in Caanda and take it across the border yourself, YOU have to do the reporting to both countries.


This older series of questions will help


 
This last question just gave me an idea for a new question:
 
What if I bring say $15 000 US into Canada but I do it at several trips and
every time I carry less then $10 000 (3000-5000)? Any  forms to fill or
report? Thanks.
 
PxXXXX
---------------------------------
david ingram replies:
 
Both countries make the transportation of more than $10,000 in pieces a crime as well.
 
However, if you were sending a $1,000 a month to a savings plan or something, that would not matter.
 
The crime would be trying to assemble the more than $10,000 in the other country when you had the ability to send it all at once.
 
I.E.  You have $25,000 in a bank in Seattle and send $5,000 every couple of days until it is all in Canada. 
 
In that case, if your banks spotted what was going on, "they" would report you.
 
The bank will also report when several cheques arrive from different sources and they add up to significant amounts whether the source is from the US or not.  This is to stop people from keeping their money in other people's accounts and assembling it when they need it.
 
All part of anti money laundering legislation.
 
=============
the original question and answer follows
 
What forms do I have to fill  out if I am transporting more than $10,000 across the Canadian Border
 
==============================
 
david ingram replies:  The forms are  E677 and E667 for Canada and  104 and 105 for the US if you are bringing the money out of the US into Canada.. 
 
The US bank will report the deposit or withdrawal to the US FINCEN on  form 104 which you can find at:   http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/ffc104.pdf
 
When you then move the money to Canada by money order or check, the bank or financial institution will report it again.
 
The US penalties for failure to fill in these simple forms is up to $500,000 PLUS 5 years in jail.
 
If you remove more than $10,000 at any one time, the bank will report those transactions as well.
 
If you decide to carry the cash or transport it out of the USA as a cashier's cheque, you have to file form 105.  You can find the form at:  http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/ffc105.pdf
 
Canada has moved its forms in the last few days and i had a devil of a time trying to find them.  You can find both E677 and E667 below.

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pbg/cf/e667/e667-fill-06b.pdf
The E667 is filled out by the Bank or financial institution and you do not usually see it.

The following E677 is filled in by yourself and handed in at the airport OR LAND BORDER to CANADIAN CUSTOMS AS YOU LEAVE OR AS YOU ENTER
 
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pbg/cf/e677/e677-fill-06b.pdf

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On November 2, 2007, David Ingram wrote:
It is very unlikely that blind or unexpected email to me will be answered.  I receive anywhere from 100 to 700  unsolicited emails a day and usually answer anywhere from 2 to 20 if they are not from existing clients.  Existing clients are advised to put their 'name and PAYING CUSTOMER' in the subject and get answered first.  I also refuse to be a slave to email and do not look at it every day and have never ever looked at it when I am out of town.  e bankruptcy expert  US Canada Canadian American  Mexican Income Tax help
However, I regularly search for the words"PAYING CUSTOMER" and always answer them first if they did not get spammed out. As an example, as I write this on Oct 18, 2007 since June 16th (124 days), my 'spammed out' box has 34,939 unread messages, my deleted box has 11854 I have actually looked at and deleted and I answerd 1078 email questions for clients and strangers.  I have also put aside 622 messages that I am maybe going to try and answer because they look interesting. -e bankruptcy expert  US Canada Canadian American  Mexican Income Tax help

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This is not intended to be definitive but in general I am quoting $900 to $2,900 for a dual country tax return.
$900 would be one T4 slip one W2 slip one or two interest slips and you lived in one country only (but were filing both countries) - no self employment or rentals or capital gains - you did not move into or out of the country in this year.
 
$1,100 would be the same with one rental
 
$1,300 would be the same with one business no rental
 
$1,300 would be the minimum with a move in or out of the country. These are complicated because of the back and forth foreign tax credits. - The IRS says a foreign tax credit takes 1 hour and 53 minutes.
 
$1,600 would be the minimum with a rental or two in the country you do not live in or a rental and a business and foreign tax credits  no move in or out

$1,700 would be for two people with income from two countries

$2,900 would be all of the above and you moved in and out of the country.
 
This is just a guideline for US / Canadian returns
 
We will still prepare Canadian only (lives in Canada, no US connection period) with two or three slips and no capital gains, etc. for $200.00 up.
 
With a Rental for $400
 
A Business for $400 - Rental and business likely $550 to $700
 
And an American only (lives in the US with no Canadian income or filing period) with about the same things in the same range with a little bit more if there is a state return.
 
Moving in or out of the country or part year earnings in the US will ALWAYS be $800 and up.
 
TDF 90-22.1 forms are $50 for the first and $25.00 each after that when part of a tax return.
 
8891 forms are generally $50.00 to $100.00 each.
 
18 RRSPs would be $900.00 - (maybe amalgamate a couple)
 
Capital gains *sales)  are likely $50.00 for the first and $20.00 each after that.

Catch - up returns for the US where we use the Canadian return as a guide will be $150 to $500.00 depending upon numbers of bank accounts, RRSP's, existence of rental houses, etc.

Just a guideline not etched in stone.
 
 
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