taking money across the US / Caanda border - FINCEN 104 105 FINTRAC E677 E667

Hi David, I'm wondering if you could help me out.  I'm an American citizen who became a "permanent resident" of Canada about 4 years ago.  I recently sold property in Montreal and am thinking about returning to the US to live permanently.  What would be the best way for me to transfer the money to the states?  Thanks so much for your help!  Robin Tajiouti
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david ingram replies:

First, get your Canadian citizenship.  You have been here long enough and there are  absolutely NO disadvantages to your having dual citizenship.

The BIG advantage is that you can return to Canada anytime you want in the future with no questions and / or paperwork.

The easiest way to transfer the money is to have a Candian Bank or the Caisse Populaire transfer it electronically to your bank in the US.

This older Q & A might help as well. �

David: Thanks for the minutes you just spent with me on the phone about taking money to Seattle to pay for a car I have already ordered and put a deposit on.

Please send me the links for the forms for both the Canadian side and the US side for bringing the money to the US.

What happens to this information after I provide the forms?  Just record-keeping for both countries to determine how much money is going in each direction?

Thanks,


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david ingram replies:

Taking money across the border to buy a car is an interesting experience.  The last time I did it, I handed the form in to the US person at the border and he looked at it and said "it's wrong", go inside.

So in I went and it was wrong. 

I was going down to buy a used cadillac and had $15,000 US with me and had declared it.

Unfortunately, I also had some Canadian money with me and had neglected to include it.  The border guard looked at the $15,000 US and instinctively knew i had some Canasdian cash as well and the inside fellow gave me royal hell for not declaring "everything" 

The US forms eventually go to Detroit and the Canadian forms go to FINTRAC in Ottawa.  However, YOU hand them in at the border.

FINTRAC
24th floor, 234 Laurier Avenue West
Ottawa, ON
K1P 1H7
CANADA

Email
guidelines-lignesdirectrices@fintrac-canafe.gc.ca

Telephone
1-866-346-8722 (toll free)

Facsimile
(613) 943-7931


The two organizations actually do record them and keep them on hand to compare to other information.

This older Q & A will give you the forms needed:

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I just saw a question you answered about a Canadian living in the US as a permanent resident selling a home and wanting to transfer the money to a US bank. (http://www.david-ingram.com/CEN-TAPEDE/archive/Week-of-Mon-20061009/002904.html) I'm in the same situation, except I want to keep most of the money in Canada. You said, below, that the banks will notify the treasury on amounts over $10,000. Is this $10,000 at any one time, or per calendar year?   What I want to do is bring enough money to pay off my US credit cards. Through several bank withdrawals and cheque deposits I've already put about $9600 Canadian into my US bank (not at the same time) to pay bills. Do I need to wait until next year to bring more in, or is it okay to continue doing this? I would need maybe another $11,000 to pay everything off here.   Thanks!       ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
david ingram replies:

If you have transferred $9.600 so far and have paid it out already, there is no problem.  If you are transferring smaller amounts because you are trying to amass an amount over $10,000 for a single purpose, then you have to report the transfer of more than $10,000 AND the financial institution you have transferred the money to in the USA should be reporting the transaction as well.  In fact making several transfers for a total of $12,000 could make you look like a suspicous person whereas one $15,000 transfer would never raise a suspicious person report, especially if the money was then paid out to credit card companies.

The rules for reporting take place for both countries when there is a transfer (or series of transfers) of more than $10,000.

If you do it as a bank transfer, you do not need to worry.  The bank will do the reporting for you.

If you take cash out in Caanda and take it across the border yourself, YOU have to do the reporting to both countries.


This older series of questions will help


  This last question just gave me an idea for a new question:   What if I bring say $15 000 US into Canada but I do it at several trips and
every time I carry less then $10 000 (3000-5000)? Any  forms to fill or
report? Thanks.   PxXXXX
--------------------------------- david ingram replies:   Both countries make the transportation of more than $10,000 in pieces a crime as well.   However, if you were sending a $1,000 a month to a savings plan or something, that would not matter.   The crime would be trying to assemble the more than $10,000 in the other country when you had the ability to send it all at once.   I.E.  You have $25,000 in a bank in Seattle and send $5,000 every couple of days until it is all in Canada.    In that case, if your banks spotted what was going on, "they" would report you.   The bank will also report when several cheques arrive from different sources and they add up to significant amounts whether the source is from the US or not.  This is to stop people from keeping their money in other people's accounts and assembling it when they need it.   All part of anti money laundering legislation.   ============= the original question and answer follows   What forms do I have to fill  out if I am transporting more than $10,000 across the Canadian Border   ==============================   david ingram replies:  The forms are  E677 and E667 for Canada and  104 and 105 for the US if you are bringing the money out of the US into Canada..    The US bank will report the deposit or withdrawal to the US FINCEN on  form 104 which you can find at:   http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/ffc104.pdf   When you then move the money to Canada by money order or check, the bank or financial institution will report it again.   The US penalties for failure to fill in these simple forms is up to $500,000 PLUS 5 years in jail.   If you remove more than $10,000 at any one time, the bank will report those transactions as well.   If you decide to carry the cash or transport it out of the USA as a cashier's cheque, you have to file form 105.  You can find the form at:  http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/ffc105.pdf   Canada has moved its forms in the last few days and i had a devil of a time trying to find them.  You can find both E677 and E667 below.
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pbg/cf/e667/e667-fill-06b.pdf
The E667 is filled out by the Bank or financial institution and you do not usually see it.

The following E677 is filled in by yourself and handed in at the airport OR LAND BORDER to CANADIAN CUSTOMS AS YOU LEAVE OR AS YOU ENTER   http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pbg/cf/e677/e677-fill-06b.pdf http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/E/pbg/cf/e677/e677-fill-06b.pdf

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